Nathaniel Eliot ([info]temujin9) wrote,
@ 2008-12-17 23:38:00
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Entry tags:politics

Who Throws A Shoe, Honestly?
You've probably seen the video of the Iraqi journalist who threw his shoes at George Bush during a press conference. If you want to express support for Montather al-Zeidi, who is currently imprisoned and may have suffered serious abuse for his protest, I'd suggest you do two things:

1) Sign the petition to get him released.
2) Mail an old pair of shoes to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, Washington, DC.

A special thank you to Clovis, for suggestion #2.


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[info]gailmom
2008-12-18 06:49 am UTC (link)
I did send an email to one of the human rights organizations asking them to step in and urge an investigation of the use of excessive force in his arrest and any possible abuse following his incarceration.

I did not sign the petition for his release because of this line:
"in line with the Iraqi and US promises of democracy and freedom of expression"

It is my understanding that freedom of expression doesn't cover assault. If someone threw something at me, and was stupid enough to do it on camera, you can be damn sure I would take the opportunity to press charges to the full extent of the law.

In a society that contains as many individuals as ours, we cannot allow people to 'express' themeselves through violence.

Even against someone as heinous as President Bush.

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[info]temujin9
2008-12-18 07:15 am UTC (link)
So charge him with assault, and release him on bail pending a court date. It's obvious there's little chance of recidivism here (unless the White House press corps doesn't learn its lesson, and lets him in another Bush conference), and that the assault was not intended to inflict much more than social damage. (Thus, the title quote.) Keeping him imprisoned in US-sympathetic prisons only heightens the danger of further abuse, and sends the (true) message that we can and will abuse non-Americans however we damn please, for any slight.

Sorry, but my morals are flexible enough to condone throwing tennis shoes at a man who caused many thousands of deaths based on trumped-up evidence and a family grudge. Even if it's not in line with conventional freedom of expression, which for most Iraqis is still just the freedom to scream from within a well-insulated box. The rule of law doesn't seem to apply to Bush; I don't see much use in standing up for it against those who oppose him politically, at great peril to themselves.

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[info]gailmom
2008-12-18 01:41 pm UTC (link)
I won't argue that if anyone deserves it, it's that bastard W. And if you know of a petition to treat him like any other idiot who threw something, I would be pleased to know about it. But the way I read the petition posted here was as a request to release him because his actions should be covered by freedom of expression, and they aren't.

You want to shout stuff at Bush? Do it, I'll stand up and defend your right to do so with my blood. You want to hold a protest? Yes, I will sign petitions galore to defend that right, mail letters to every representative I have, vote where needed.

I will happily sign or send money to any group working to have this man treated the way he would be if he had thrown shoes at my head. He should be accorded due process, he should be judged based on the fact it was say, shoes and not a brick, not on the fact it was the president and not me. Do I think he will be? No. And I will protest that if someone can show me where to do so. But words matter. A lot. And I cannot, in good consciounse, sign a petition that asks him to be released *because he didn't do anything wrong*.

If freedom of expression allowed acts of violence as acceptable, the guy who calls me a treehugging cunt out his window because my bike was in the way of his car would have the right to run me over instead. Is assault with a car the same as a tennis shoe? Yes, it's just a matter of degree, and the judgement for one should be handed down as much more lenient than for the other, but it's only a matter of degree, not of category.

For that same reason, I find myself reluctant to, on a theoretical level at least, agree that if "the rule of law doesn't seem to apply to Bush" there isn't "much use in standing up for it against those who oppose him politically". Ok. I can see that urge. Part of me even wants to say "he's the man responsible for untold deaths, and may have played a large part in making sure my children's future is less secure than it has ever been before. if he won't follow the rules, why should anyone else?". It's tempting. Especially when one takes into account the degree of his offenses vs...well...tennis shoes. But if we say "you broke the rules, so we don't have to follow them in opposing you" do you then have the right to say "he broke the rules by throwing shoes, but they shouldn't have broken the rules by beating him when they arrested him"? why now, he broke the rules so they don't apply to him right? I don't know where that grey area gets murky and uncomfortable to me, I'm sure there is a line that could be drawn some where, at X deaths for example, which Bush crossed but the reporter did not...but making those decisions isn't our job, it belongs to a judge.

Do I think he can get a fair hearing? No, and I think that he should. Should he still be in prison without having been charged and bail considered? No, absolutely not. But those, to my mind, are what these 1000+ people who have signed the petitation should be fighting for. To say instead that he should be released because "well, he was expressing himself, and it was only a shoe"...that's not our call.

I will also admit I haven't been following this story. I told you I wasn't signing, mostly as an opportunity for you to 1)tell me why I should or 2)point me at a source that might change my mind. Not to attack your belief that it should be signed in any way. It was late at night and I see in re-reading it that I didn't make that clear, my apologies if I offended.

If my answers are making you angry, feel free to stop it here, even delete whatever you like, or post once more your argument and tell me it's over, I'll bow out. If this is debate between friends who have found a political difference however...carry on, I'm always open to those. :)

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[info]temujin9
2008-12-18 03:51 pm UTC (link)
First: No offense taken or intended, I'm just vociferous by nature.

My reasons are entirely based in situational politics, not moral, ethical, or legal grounds. The petition is worded (poorly) on those grounds, but those aren't my motives for signing it.

Though I would seriously question comparing Bush's actions to that of Hitler (or al-Zeidi), Winston Churchill said it best: "I have but one purpose, and my life is greatly simplified thereby. If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons."

Bush deserves much more than a shoe, and the shoes are all he's likely to get. Given that the rule of law won't touch him, I want to make sure that the court of public opinion does. That includes showing support for the less than legal protest that I might not support in other circumstances (say, a judge and a drunk driver who lost his license) or to greater degrees (say, a more serious assault). I want the pragmatic result: that future corrupt politicians will flinch at the sight of a man tying his shoe, and reconsider pulling Bush-style shenanigans.

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Court of Public Opinion
[info]holly_as_mom
2008-12-23 05:06 pm UTC (link)
Don't worry, the Court of Public Opinion has judged Bush quite well, I think. The best comment I heard was on NPR's news quiz, when one of the hosts said he had a hard time understanding why Bush stood back up after the first shoe was thrown, why he didn't just stay down....until he realized that Bush hadn't had time to do the math. He he!

love, Mom

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